�Contained� and �Controlled�?

[abercrombie]

From the Ab account:

Do you mind tossing a question out for feedback?


There is slight debate here about the definitions of, and the difference between �Contained� and �Controlled� stages�
ie: when to declare a fire one or the other.

Matt from Carbondale CO

[caffpm]

LA County uses:
Knock down - no more active flame
Contained - charged hose, dozer or handline around the entire perimeter
Controlled - Fire will not escape even with remarkable weather changes, wind etc
Out - Done deal

[RetFSFireCop]

LA County uses:
Knock down - no more active flame
Contained - charged hose, dozer or handline around the entire perimeter
Controlled - Fire will not escape even with remarkable weather changes, wind etc
Out - Done deal

Somewhat the same idea:

Not sure where it come from, but what we used to teach in the Basic 40 for the FS was:
Contained: The fire has a line completely around it, either constucted or natural (lake, rock slide, etc), and the forward rate of spread is stopped. Any spot fires are in the same condition.
Controlled: The fire will not grow (or escape containment) with predicted weather or fire conditions. Unburned islands of fuel on large fires may continue to burn out, but will not be a factor to holding control lines.
Out: No smoke has been seen for at least 24 hours. Most of the large fires in heavy timber fuels are not declared "Out" until several storms in the fall of year have passed over for a complete soaking. (Even then, I have seen dozer piles or deep stump holes hold over and are hot the next spring!)

Hope this helps?

[rubbishhook]

My further understanding, at least here in California, is that if you call a fire controlled (rather than contained) you are on the hook for suppression costs at that point (short of some other agreement). I.E. - you get a relatively small fire in your LRA and request or receive say State Resources; aircraft and the like, and then call it controlled, you are then on the hook for those costs if they continue to be used. In California we have agreements that pay for aircraft on local fires given certain perameters, like immediate structure threat. Once the fire is "Controlled" however, those aircraft become "Assistance for Hire" and now the local agency is on the hook if they use them. Calling a fire controlled essentially negates those perameters that would otherwise cover the costs. Can be a very expensive mistake.

[RetFSFireCop]

RH--you make a good point--the semantics do have a fiscal impact. In regards to aircraft, at least between FS and Cal Fire, all dispatches are "Assistance by Hire" when the A/C responds to the other jurisdiction. Take a FS helitack crew for example, when launched to an I/A fire, the billing starts for the aircraft on liftoff, but the costs of the crew are covered under the mutual aid agreement. If sent to a contained or controlled fire, the total cost of the A/C and crew would be considered "Assistance by Hire"? Not sure how the Cal Fire/LG agreements work?

[ke6buu]

(Even then, I have seen dozer piles or deep stump holes hold over and are hot the next spring!)

Reminds me of the Cleveland fire (ENF). Had smoke in the burn in the spring after it was under snow for the winter.

[RetFSFireCop]

(Even then, I have seen dozer piles or deep stump holes hold over and are hot the next spring!)

Reminds me of the Cleveland fire (ENF). Had smoke in the burn in the spring after it was under snow for the winter.

I was specifically thinking of the Cleveland when I wrote the post. I also saw the same thing on the ENF in the spring of 1974, after the Pilliken Fire in August of 1973--held over all winter!

[coopchf30]

My further understanding, at least here in California, is that if you call a fire controlled (rather than contained) you are on the hook for suppression costs at that point (short of some other agreement). I.E. - you get a relatively small fire in your LRA and request or receive say State Resources; aircraft and the like, and then call it controlled, you are then on the hook for those costs if they continue to be used. In California we have agreements that pay for aircraft on local fires given certain perameters, like immediate structure threat. Once the fire is "Controlled" however, those aircraft become "Assistance for Hire" and now the local agency is on the hook if they use them. Calling a fire controlled essentially negates those perameters that would otherwise cover the costs. Can be a very expensive mistake.

I believe you are referring to the document called the �7 Points of Light.� I have attached a link to it at the end of this post. It is page 8 of the referenced document.

There are two phrases that are important in determining the applicability of the �7-Points of Light.� The first is �likely to exceed its ability to control� (lead-in paragraph) and the second is �necessary to prevent imminent or perceived imminent threat to life and property� (paragraph 3).

It is also important to understand that the �7-Points of Light� only applies to state resources and does not apply to federal resources, unless obtained through other pre-existing agreements.

Link to the "7-Points of Light": http://www.firescope.org/ics-guides-.../ICS%20900.pdf

[BigWhiteDog]

I have seen a big difference between the Feds and Cal Fire when it comes to contained-controlled. I have been on fires as Cal Fire where not only did we have a wet line around it but a dozer line as well and we had been baby-sitting it all night with not a glow to be seen, yet the next morning we learn that it was at "90% containment" and continued to be so for another 24 hours. And this happened more than a few times. We pretty much only called "contained" on veg fires at the same the same time we declared it controlled and were leaving. The joke was, "the X fire is at 80%? Oh, it's out then". I honestly believed that there was some type of budget or PR "milking going on. Just my opinion

[Birken Vogt]

I have a question: as of now, the fire is listed as 8% contained. Yet, looking at the map, it appears that 30-40% of the fire is completed, direct line, either hand, highway, or dozer, with the remainder being open line. What determines the percent containment that they are reporting?