Type 1 vs. Type 2 Team & Complexity

[RetFSFireCop]

This thread was started based on discussion from the CA-MNF-Mill incident questions and discussion thread

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Based on KCRA news at both 1700 and 1800, FS admitted that they way "underestimated" this fire on IA. Not sure what this means? Also, the comment was made on the news that "we were not prepared for this fire". I am not thowing stones, just curious what the FS spokesperson meant by the comments?

[hitdoghowls]

Based on what the fire is doing and potential, they are still way under estimating this fire. Should have ordered a type 1 team this morning

[rrvfd]

they should have dont that yesterday when it took off on them. there are alot of ranch homes out there and alot of cattle.

[kevlar]

This is from post 13 in the Mill fire thread. I moved this over here for the discussion on why the IC "underestimated" the potential at the end of the first day.

Sounds like they had minimal resources at the end of the first day when it was 250-300 acres in timber.

Sorry to say this but it reminds me of the beginning of another fire that happend a couple of seasons ago in SoCal called the Station fire.

Listening to Air Attack's transition, it sounds like outgoing air attack's biggest frustration was no ground resources on the fire this whole time, and no ground resources able to establish an anchor point anywhere. The current plan is to establish anchor point800 577 4587. *See if JBREG can help if they even *service that area. Not sure.* below 17N02 and work downhill, going direct on the fire into the canyon. HT781 returning to Red Bluff for the evening. Tanker 40 returning to Redding for evening. Calfire copter 901 back to Ukiah. T93 back to Chico.
MNF Forest, Air Tactics, Victor and ground tactics (when not in canyon) on http://www.scancal.org/live.html

[smokinggun]

Due to the incident complexity, anyone know if they are looking at puting a type 1 team on this fire?
* 900 + people at the incident
* More resources in ROSS ordered
* The incident has branches
* Multiple jurisdictions

As I stated earlier, the incident complexity easily met type 1 status. You can refer to the document below on how to determine what level you need. I am not inside the heads of those making the decisions nor do I want to discredit them, however I think there should be PIA's so those who do make those decisions can learn. I personally believe cost was a major driver for the decisions that were made and it will be ironic when this incident will end up costing 100 fold for what they could have put it out for. Just my 2 cents. Off my soapbox now, anyone want to hop on???

http://training.fema.gov/EMIWeb/IS/I...identTypes.pdf

[norcalscan]

I don't have the education and credentials to second guess the IA folks. I'm a commo guy, who happens to have a family cabin on the MNF. But I can share what was heard. I did hear this thing from the start, while monitoring TGU-butte this thing started in the background. I paid attention when emotions starting going over the radio. Not sure on the resource type, if it was LE or a PT unit but he sounded single resource (inspectorPL stated it was an mnf engine), on 17N02 and witnessing this fire start in the canyon below him and having numerous people down in the canyon in harms way. He was going to go down, but a supervisor ordered him not to go downhill into a fire. There wasn't much size up at this point as the guy's focus was getting people out of the canyon fast and safe. At one point 2-3 and then 3-5 acres. At 3-5 acres it crossed 17N02 if I recall and first aircraft arrives. Like I stated and was reposted, Air Attack had little commo with any ground resource. I concurred with transitioning air attacks frustration of no ground work. I was confused on ground for the entire IA period, thinking I was missing a radio channel etc since very little command traffic was going. It felt like the only traffic on radio was aircraft, or scattered ground resources responding.

Earlier that day TGU-Thunderhill attracted some MNF resources from the east side. Possibly stonyford but don't quote me. That fire was just starting mop up when TGU-Butte started, more MNF resources from Paskenta responded. In the middle of that is when MNF-Mill hit. Not sure on exact drawdown of Grindstone resources on those SRA incidents but there were some.

Air attack did have a few toys up here due to SHU-Dale. HT781 and a heavy tanker (40) were ordered for Dale and then Dale was checkmated overnight leaving these resources in limbo. Chico and Grass Valley were already warmed up with TGU thunder hill and then Butte. He took full advantage of aircraft during IA but without anchor points it was futile.
I'll stop here to avoid putting opinion in what I'm trying to keep as just observation...

[SmkEatr03]

Ok I was going to hold back my comments but this keeps going on and on about a type one team.... Guess what, you could put a type one team on this fire with Barack Obama as your IC if you want but that team wont change the wind, heat, humidity, topography or anything. The team that is on this fire (NOR CAL Team 2) has been on much bigger fires and complexes than this one in California, Nevada, Montana, Wyoming, etc. It has nothing to do with the team. This fire "wasnt prepared for" because of what happened the first day long before the team even arrived. This was local gov fire and maybe a couple forest service engines, thats what happened, and why it had taken off so big in the last 48 hours was because of the wind and the way the smoke was behaving making AA unable to do anything. add that to the fact there were multiple incidents going on not only 5 fires in newman area but a fire north on the shasta t and in butte. Now before everyone starts in on me I have multiple seasons with the FS on a couple different forests, I have many years in with local government and I have worked under and along side many of the people that make up NORCAL Team 2. Lets all just think a little before we try blaming the team. That would be like me commenting on how Cal Fire incidents they make it a point not to call FS unless its a last resort. They will call in S/T's from farther away than use closer Forest Service engines. Not trying to get on anyone like I said lets just stop and think about everything before placing blame.

[GoWBBDogs]

I agree with you SmkEatr03, alot of opinions being put out there. With all the action going on up there over the pass 5 days something was going to get big, then you put in a place that gets those down canyon winds when the valley gets over 100 degrees, that adds to the issues. I'm sure the team is doing a good job.

[smokinggun]

I am sure Nor Cal Team 2 is the best team ever and they have fought bigger, more critical and more complex fires than the Mill fire. I am not debating that another team could have changed weather or fire conditions. What I am stating is there were decisions made early on to try and get certain resources on this fire when other resources were closer and capable of the same production.

As for the type 2 team...... There is an incident complexity matrix that helps IC's and GACCS in thier decisions to increase or decrease the type of incident. You could be the best type 2, or 3 or whatever team you want it to be, however, the team types were put in place for a reason. Not based on that 1 teams capabilities but based on the complexity of the incident. Please do not take this as a personal attack on this team. I have fought fire with this team a number of times and they are very capable and knowledgeable. I don't work for the Forest Service nor Calfire, but I do have an interest in seeing the system work.

[hitdoghowls]

This is not about NorCal Team 2, its about the FS missing on IA with not enough resources and then ordering the wrong tool for the job at hand. Now up to 1300 plus staffing on this. A type one team has the staffing to handle this complexity. NorCal Team 2 is and will do a fine job but they are doing it with less than an adequate size organization. Stretching a team to it limit is rarely the right thing to do when working with fire.