Burning Sands, a danger in SoCal deserts?

[roadrunner]

Mystery report? burning sands?

I sent this in to theysaid and am posting it here too. I thought these guys might be pulling my leg. Could it be true? Seems someone would of posted about it before now.


Ab, coupla friends were sitting around the other night talking about warnings they'd seen or heard about before the days of theysaid. A number of stories came up, but one was about desert sands that burned from the deposits in them. Does anyone know the story or the origin of it? He thought it was late '80s or early '90s. Figured i better ask before all the old dogs that might know are long gone to Big Ernie.

Lotsa good old stories when you get the older guys lubed up and hair let down a little. if hair is not all gone.

[Pyro5755]

Personally, I'd never have bought the idea of mineral earth burning (too many years of "scrape to mineral earth", perhaps?) but...

Since my recent semi-retirement (essentially just a career change), I've been working on the edges of the mining industry, and have been learning a lot about the melting temps, ignition temps, etc, of various metals - all of which are a major part of any fire assay process; in other words, any experienced assay lab tech or fire assayer knows this shtuff.

Heck, steel burns; any blacksmith knows that. But we're looking for low ignition temps...

So I'm thinking magnesium, potassium, manganese... I'd wager that borax would even burn (commonly used as flux when "welding" (actually brazing) in propane forges); obviously, other elements in compounds, concentrations, etc, would need to be right in a localized mineral deposit, but yeah, I'll buy it in certain circumstances.

[Strider]

HAHAHAHA

Sounds like a hotshot prank to me but I don't know the combustion properties of desert salts & minerals.

From the binder holes it looks like someone had it on file. There's info from R3 and California Desert District.

It's a keeper if it was a prank!

Just believable enough if you believe it could possibly be true, Pyro.


Ab link addition from theysaid:

www.wildlandfire.com/docs/2009/HazSandFireArea.pdf

[stringtown]

I looked up potassium permanganate, which is a salt. The MSDS said you have to be careful becuase heat and friction can cause reactivity- sounds like it could easily be ignited if it is found naturally in salt flats. I thought of borax right away too Pyro- I used to go out around Boron frequently- but I've never heard of any crazy sand fires.

I asked a couple of FS old timers, they've never heard of actual fires- one who used to work in Big Bear said he had heard of something like that back in the day- but he thought it was some sort of "urban legend" of fire.

Here's what the MSDS says:

5. Fire Fighting Measures
Fire:
Not combustible, but substance is a strong oxidizer and its heat of reaction with reducing agents or combustibles may cause ignition. Contact with oxidizable substances may cause extremely violent combustion.
Explosion:
Strong oxidants may explode when shocked, or if exposed to heat, flame, or friction. Also may act as initiation source for dust or vapor explosions. Contact with oxidizable substances may cause extremely violent combustion. Sealed containers may rupture when heated. Sensitive to mechanical impact.
Fire Extinguishing Media:
Use water spray to blanket fire, cool fire exposed containers, and to flush non-ignited spills or vapors away from fire. Suffocating type extinguishers are not as effective as water. Do not allow water runoff to enter sewers or waterways.
Special Information:
In the event of a fire, wear full protective clothing and NIOSH-approved self-contained breathing apparatus with full facepiece operated in the pressure demand or other positive pressure mode.

10. Stability and Reactivity
Incompatibilities:
Powdered metals, alcohol, arsenites, bromides, iodides, phosphorous, sulfuric acid, organic compounds, sulfur, activated carbon, hydrides, strong hydrogen peroxide, ferrous or mercurous salts, hypophosphites, hyposulfites, sulfites, peroxides, and oxalates.
Conditions to Avoid:
Heat, flames, ignition sources and incompatibles.

So watch out for drunk people out in the salt flats!! :D (sounds like a good one for Mythbusters)

[abercrombie]

from the Ab account probably because of the attachment:

Hey Ab,

Anything will burn given the right conditions. Raging Sand Fires can be an extremely powerful force of nature. Another example are the Florida Muck Fires. During the 2007 National Fuels and Fire Behavior Conference, Susan McClellan (Florida Department of Forestry) gave an entire presentation on the hazards of Raging Muck Fires. I was even given a plastic bag sample of some Polk County Grade-A Muck to warn CA firefighters what to look for on swamp fire assignments. Attached are a few slides from her talk.

www.wildlandfire.com/docs/2009/RagingMuckFires.pdf

Perhaps a Fire Geologist can better explain how the combustion process is possible.

Fire Geek

[Mod-Green]

Muck is an early stage of Peat (lots of it in Ireland and elsewhere) which can be used for fuel. Muck has just not dried out yet. Yep the ground can burn.

This is for reading when you have your thinking cap on: http://www.emporia.edu/earthsci/stud...og_report.html

[BorderGuy]

Soft earth metals, like potassium and sodium, are extremely volatile in their pure form. There are plenty of chemistry/geology videos out there showing their combustion properties. For example, pure sodium (Na) when introduced to simple water, will ignite rather violently. So, in the instance of "burning sands", it can be possible with the right elements and the right ignition source or chemical solution.

[chief 3600]

This concept of burning sands in the BLM California Desert District took place in the early 90's under my watch, and another person by the name of Fire Geek. It will go down in history, it has made it all around the country and to the head sheds of all agencies. It has also caused a lot of consternation and review. Enough said.

[abercrombie]

Ab,
This should satisfy all the "inquiring minds who want to know" about the Raging Sand Fires...

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

With your fire behavior background, you'll appreciate this story. In the
late 80's we started to receive warning notices about the fuels
conditions and extreme fire behavior potential in northern CA and the
northern Rockies. One of my engine captains and the BLM Yuma District
FMO conspired one night in a pub to use this same format to alert
visiting crews to the CA Desert District about unique hazards due to
heavy concentrations of potassium permanganate that is commonly found in
desert soils. The fictitious 1990 Shifting Sands Fire shelter deployment
was used as a case study to offer further proof of the deadly consequences
to unwary firefighters who may not recognize the danger of the "Raging
Sand Fire".

Additional documentation was offered by doctored photographs taken with
a telephoto lens which showed three deployed and perfectly formed
upright fire shelters surrounded by 8-10 ft. flame lengths. The photos
were taken from about 20 feet away and long lens compressed the scene to
look like something out of Dante's Inferno. The area surrounding the
shelters had drip torch fuel-soaked cardboard buried a few inches below
the surface which gave the illusion that the sand was intensely burning.

We had a lot of fun passing out the Raging Sand Fire warning notice and
Shifting Sands Fire investigation report during our S-190 courses. We
always had one or two newbies in the class who swallowed it hook, line
and sinker. We even developed a set of survival guidelines to be
followed if you are ever caught in a Raging Sand Fire such as:

1. You can't outrun a Raging Sand Fire because every step you take
   will ignite.
2. You can't scrape down to mineral soil to deploy a shelter because
   it only intensifies the burning process.

After awhile they would realize they'd been had and we'd joke about it
for the rest of the season. We had a bunch of handouts leftover from the
1990 fire refresher course so I sent them to my old Redding Hotshot
Superintendent so they would be prepared in case they were ever
dispatched down south to a Joshua Tree fire. That was the same year my
vehicle, tent and everything I didn't have with me on the fireline was
incinerated during the Stormy Complex (not a Ranging Sand Fire) on the
Sequoia National Forest. I went to the Forest Supervisors office to
obtain some forms needed to file my claim to replace personal items when
I noticed the Sand Fire Warning tacked to the safety notice bulletin
board. I asked the gal behind the desk if she was aware of the dangers
of Ranging Sand Fires in the CA Desert. She replied, "Oh yes, isn't
that amazing? We've circulated this notice to all our fire stations". I
did my best to keep a straight face and called Lanky a few days later
after I was demobed. When he answered I told him that the folks on the
Sequoia took it seriously expecting him to LOL. Instead there was a
long pause on the phone and he said, "You mean it's not real? Heck no,
there's no such thing as a Raging Sand Fire, why do you ask"?

Well, apparently when he received my package of Sand Fire notices he
sent one to the R5 Regional Safety Officer who copied and distributed
them to every Forest in the region. A copy was also sent to the WO
Safety Officer and I heard that copies eventually ended up going to all
the cooperating agencies as well. I apologized and asked him if I should
write a letter explaining it was only intended to be a joke and he told
me not to, hoping it would die out on its own (like wildland sand fire
use?).

So here we are 20 years later and the Foam Geek has resurrected the
Raging Sand Fire phenomena. It wouldn't surprise me if he isn't the
author and genius behind it all. Attached for your review is a scanned
copy of the original documents complete with spelling errors which
should have been the first clue that something is fishy. Sorry, I can't
find the photos which went with the investigation report. Perhaps Foam
Geek has them. It still amazes me that it got as far as it did. Please
don't forward it to the WO Safety Officer... on second thought, if you
type in "Feasibility Analysis -- Fire Protection Contracting in Southern
California (DRAFT) February 8, 2008" as a footer, they'll believe
anything.

Fire Geek

[Pyro5755]

That is truly World Class!

And well timed; thanks for a badly-needed grin today.

Be Safe, All.